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Geocaching by the community, for the community
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:54 am Post subject: What's GEOTAGs all about? |
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This forum is for discussion and implementation of GEOTAGs. GEOTAGs are the way we're going to embed our cache information so listing/search sites can more easily parse the information. While parsers can easily be written to grab the information from a page, using a standard by which we all can adhere will require only one parser.
GEOTAGs are geared toward a static communication standard. Other standards for a more dynamic will discussed seperately. The dynamic standard will most likely be a form of XML, something I'm not at all familiar with. I'll help out with something I can understand.
Threads will be two basic types; discussion and implementation.
If you'd like to contribute just post a note and say what you're doing. While duplication is good, making sure we cover the whole project is better.
Let's get rolling!
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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Team BMW-Biker
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure, if i've understand how this GEOTAGS-stuff should work ...
Is the 'long cache description' stored in the database or only on the user-website ?
When i start a search on oc.com and want to view an cache that is submitted by geotags, what does i see - the users-webpage or an oc.com-page ?
Thx, for answering !
... Oli |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Team BMW-Biker wrote: | I'm not sure, if i've understand how this GEOTAGS-stuff should work ...
Is the 'long cache description' stored in the database or only on the user-website ?
When i start a search on oc.com and want to view an cache that is submitted by geotags, what does i see - the users-webpage or an oc.com-page ? |
Good question!
GEOTAGs are part of the underlying code on a cache page. They exist so someone can post a cache page anywhere they want, insert the GEOTAGs, and then submit to a listing site so others can find them.
The long description only resides on the users cache page, not in the listing site's database. This is so if there is a change in the cache page, it's intant.
When a cache comes up on a listing service's search--say you're looking for traditonals in your area--and an independent cache is shown, when you click on the link it will take you to that cache page.
Idealy, there will be a way to log your visit, but I don't see that as a requirement. Logging could be a form of a guestbook--really what gc.com's log function is anyway--or a forum section, or a blog tool.
Or, the individual could be running a dedicated caching script that will automatic and intergrate the essential functions of the cache page.
But, if that's the case GEOTAGs might not be the best way to handle communicating with a listing or stats site--XML would probably be better.
CR
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Team BMW-Biker
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, ok ... now there are a few other questions ...
| Quote: | | The long description only resides on the users cache page, not in the listing site's database. This is so if there is a change in the cache page, it's intant. |
We had a long discussion about corenodes and why it is so important that cache-data is kept 'on more than one place'. This "undermines" (babelfish) the whole concept ... (or i haven't understood both) ...
| Quote: | | When a cache comes up on a listing service's search--say you're looking for traditonals in your area--and an independent cache is shown, when you click on the link it will take you to that cache page. |
... and all the feature's presented on my favorite corenode doesn't grip (like high-available webserver, full-text search, logging-stats ...).
| Quote: | | Idealy, there will be a way to log your visit, but I don't see that as a requirement. Logging could be a form of a guestbook--really what gc.com's log function is anyway--or a forum section, or a blog tool. |
So geotags aren't 'real' caches (in the form of: find the cache in the internet, search it in the nature, log in the cachebox-logbook, go home, log in the internet, wait a few days and see what statistic-geocaching-services like gc.de does with it) ?
Whats the advantage of submitting a cache via GEOTAGS to the oc-network ?
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I think about this:
- "all geocachers that want to read my cache-description and see if it is the right for them are redirected to my webpage ... gives a good counter-stat for my page"
comment: there are other ways to get a "1000" to a webpage-counter
- "i can give additional informations like pictures or java-scripts to calculate online the final-stage ... and so on"
comment: the most geocachers doesn't want to be dropped down with too much informations. A simple and clear instruction is often better than a multi-media presentation a'la flash ... if someone wishes this, he could write in his descripition where the informations will be found.
- "i must only change the informations on my webpage and not on any oc-network page, too"
comment: ok, this is an advantage ... we could make an 'update on request' - simple repost the URL with the GEOTAGS-informations.
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ok, enough ...
GEOTAGS are good ... it would be an easy-to-use interface for users to say an desktop-program which cache they mean and the properties of it ... its only an URL required.
But i don't think that it is a good idea to keep the informations 'primary' on the users-page. If an cache-owner wants that some geocachers visit his site, he could write it in the cache-description ...
i think the submission via GEOTAGS is ok, but ALL information of an cache should be stored in the oc-database.
Thanks,
Oli |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Team BMW-Biker wrote: |
think the submission via GEOTAGS is ok, but ALL information of an cache should be stored in the oc-database.
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One of the primary reasons for a distributed network is money.
One would have to have very deep pockets--lots of money--to compete against a site like geocaching.com. Just think of the amount of money one would have to come up with to create a system that could handle the work load that gc.com sees every day. With database size, bandwidth, computer horsepower to handle all of those hits in any given space...
There is no way a hobbyist could handle that load without major funds.
However, by allowing the seperation of functions in caching, the burden of all the above is spread out over many systems. If the basic concept is thought of as scalable then a hobbyist could handle the caching traffic for his area. By further seperating the functions burden is further spread out. The traffic to my personal caches, including logging and whatnot, would be a drop in the bucket compared to what I'm allowed.
Another issue is the fact, by using GEOTAGs a less technical savvy person can contribute bandwidth savings without having to put up an opencaching node. I see a node as a very complicated thing. I'd rather see simple. Something you don't have to be a programmer to implement.
If we start small, but with a eye on the bigger picture, we can get the ball rolling.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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Team BMW-Biker
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If the basic concept is thought of as scalable then a hobbyist could handle the caching traffic for his area. |
But would he ? Whats the advantage for the users (owners and finders) of submitting a cache via GEOTAGS to the oc-network ?
When i see it right, there is no possibility to take i.e. user-logging-statistics over such caches. |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Team BMW-Biker wrote: | | Whats the advantage for the users (owners and finders) of submitting a cache via GEOTAGS to the oc-network ? |
The advantage of submitting a cache via GEOTAG versus putting a cache on an established host or running a hosting script?
He would be able to put out a cache on his free ISP webspace--usually a few MBs--and not have to be affiliated with any hosting site.
Look, I'm not saying GEOTAGs are the only way to do this or even the best way. It is a way for someone to handcode his cache page in order for a listing site to pick it up. It is also a way for a hosting script to present machine readable cache information is a standard way so a listing site can pick it up and not have to worry about "this" site presents cache information this way and "that" site presents it that way. It's a standard.
The other way to for a site to present it's cache information is via XML. But this much more complicated to hand code or it will require running a script--not something everyone can do.
CR
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Team BMW-Biker
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Look, I'm not saying GEOTAGs are the only way to do this or even the best way. |
i know ...  ... and i don't say "this is the badest idea ever heard" or sth like that ...
| Quote: | | It is also a way for a hosting script to present machine readable cache information is a standard way so a listing site can pick it up and not have to worry about "this" site presents cache information this way and "that" site presents it that way. It's a standard. |
its a good idea to introduce such standards ... but we have to be very carefull with the concepts behind this standards, think for the situations when thousands  of users have implemented a standard (from us) and we say oh sorry, this standard is no more supported because we have made a mistace when defining it and now its no more compatible ...
ok, lets make a bit positiv critic ...
| Quote: | | The other way to for a site to present it's cache information is via XML. |
Would it be a good idea to add an (maybe optional) tag GEO.XMLFILE (refrence to an online XML file, describing the same cache, including i.e. long-description) ?
... Oli |
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Scout
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I thought the motivation behind geotags was to support "private label" caches. And the motivation behind private label caches was to retain control of one's own copyrighted material in the cache description.
With gc.com, you assign to Groundspeak, Inc. the right to do as it wants with your copyrighted material when you submit it to their Web site. Some people (not all) find that objectionable. For those people, geotags and private label caches give them an alternative. It would be bad if opencaching forced everyone to do this, but it won't. It offers a choice. Choice is a Good Thing (TM).
Even if the cache description is hosted off-site, logs can be kept on-site. So, stats and searches can all still be done. Even full text searches of the cache description, if someone cares enough to write a web crawler/indexer.
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