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Scout
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 235
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 Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| cezanne wrote: | | I was not talking about virtuals. You can take an arbitrary list of things that have no relationship to geocaching: Cooking recipes, calculus problems, ................ |
These sound a little bit like "locationless" caches. Not many people will be interested in these, but it won't hurt if they are in the database. Just like there will probably be a category for micro cache and virtual cache, you can have a category for "cooking recipe". Someone finds a good recipe, they record a waypoint for that cookie recipe with their GPSr, then they submit a "cache" specifying that it is of type "cookie recipe". The default filters that a Web site presents to new users ignores caches of type "cookie recipe" so most people don't even know they are in there.
"Cookie recipe" is an extreme example. But "benchmark" is a good example. A lot of people like these. A lot of people don't. But they are all in the gc.com database together. gc.com presents them to the user as two separate things, so most people are happy. An opencaching database will be able to do the same thing, and so much more, not dictated just by one person's opinion about what a cache is and what a cache isn't.
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Scout wrote: | | cezanne wrote: | | I was not talking about virtuals. You can take an arbitrary list of things that have no relationship to geocaching: Cooking recipes, calculus problems, ................ |
These sound a little bit like "locationless" caches. Not many people will be interested in these, but it won't hurt if they are in the database.
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Locationless caches in my understanding are something completely different. Go out and find a stone arc and take a photo together with your GPS, is something which is related to what geocachins is about.
Solving a calculus problem (say, for example, some sort of integral, and mailing the answer to the cache owner) or cooking a meal and taking a photo of the meal (this is an example a fellow cacher of mine came up some time ago), has no relationship at all to geocaching even in the widest sense.
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Just like there will probably be a category for micro cache and virtual cache, you can have a category for "cooking recipe". Someone finds a good recipe, they record a waypoint for that cookie recipe with their GPSr, then they submit a "cache" specifying that it is of type "cookie recipe". The default filters that a Web site presents to new users ignores caches of type "cookie recipe" so most people don't even know they are in there.
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Of course one could that, but feels ridiculous to me. And someone just having a cursory look at the web site, will not any longer be able to quickly realize what geocaching is really about.
Moreover, who will guarantee that cooking recipes will be classified as such? The motivation to classify them as traditional caches will be high for some people as this helps them to increase their number of found caches.
Even if there exist cache rating systems, it will not help if some cachers object against a cooking recipe being classified as traditional cache.
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"Cookie recipe" is an extreme example. But "benchmark" is a good example.
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No, benchmark is not a good example. First, benchmarks exist only in the US, and I have to admit that I am not that much interested into the US situation. Second, benchmarks are counted separately even on gc.com. There is moreover no chance to get a benchmark approved as traditional cache. Third, for visiting benchmarks a GPS or maps or some other tools for orientation are needed. For cooking a meal this is not true. For computing an integral or solving a crossword's puzzle (maybe this is a better example for you?) the situation is similar as for cooking a meal.
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A lot of people like these. A lot of people don't. But they are all in the gc.com database together. gc.com presents them to the user as two separate things, so most people are happy.
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See what I have written above. My point is not about what a certain person likes to see, but about whether the data base contains also a log of things that do not belong there at all.
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An opencaching database will be able to do the same thing, and so much more, not dictated just by one person's opinion about what a cache is and what a cache isn't. |
I got this point already a long time ago. Still it seems ridiculous to me to understand openness in the sense that everyone can declare whatever exists in the world to be a cache. Maybe the reason why we disagree on this point is that you consider the issue from the practical point of view while I am looking at it from the theoretical point of view. (I prefer to have clearly defined concepts - this does not exclude the possibility to come up with new concepts.)
Cezanne |
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Renegade Knight
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:59 am Post subject: |
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If you can put cookie recipies in the network that's a problem.
The only thing you should be filtering is caches. Not junk data.
The more work anyone has to do to just go find a cache the less fun it is. Plus if someone misses out on a new cache idea because they are filtering everything except caches to prevent cookie recipies and other junk from getting through, that's not a good thing either. |
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Scout wrote: |
First, the opencaching *system* is completely open. No one person can monopolize the data. If someone else thinks they have a better idea how to present the data to the user, they can take the data and do it.
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Yes, I know. This is the aspect of opencaching I like very much and it was the reason for me to register myself here.
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Second, each person who sets up a single instance of an opencaching *Web site* is free to present whatever data he wants in whatever form he wants.
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So, you would be happy if someone started up a porno site and used the name of opencaching for it? (I know that this is an extreme example, but I want to make sure that you will see how far reaching the consequences of what you wrote above are.)
Another less drastic example: What if a person to decides to set up a commercial site on the basis of the opencaching data?
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It's already happening. The opencaching movement is our only hope that these different geocaching databases can talk to each other. |
It has happened only a to relatively small extent. Except Russia and Hungary, the caches of the other countries are well represented on gc.com. Certainly, there exists also nc.com, but nc.com is no thread to
geocaching as an international activity. At the moment the German caches can be found in the same data basis than the Belgian caches, or the Slovenian caches, or the Scandinavian ones etc. My hope is that the German node will display caches from all countries (this is also what some German cachers active in the opencaching project seem to aim at).
Furthermore, I do not understand what you mean with "....databases can talk to each other". The problem at the moment with the separate databases is not such a much a problem of having two separate systems with different interfaces, but that the caches on the Hungarian site are almost exclusively in Hungarian. I would not mind to look up the Hungarian site separately, but I have no chance to understand what is written there (which is a pity as quite a number of Hungarian caches are closer to my home than many Austrian ones). The danger that comes along with having many separate national nodes that do offer only the caches of the own country is that the most cachers will be tempted to offer the caches just in their native language.
One of my hopes connected with the opencaching project was that this project might be able to contribute to increase the number of cachers who are willing to offer multilingual cache descriptions (for example by allowing cachers to display only one of the possibly several offered languages of the description). What you are saying goes in the opposite direction.
Cezanne |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, quite frankly, I'm not interested in offering my caches in any language other than English. I don't particularly care to get the system bogged down with multiple translations of caches, either. It's up to the hidder to provide clues to his audience and no one else.
Also, being an open system no one should be telling anyone else what should be in the system. Just like no one should be telling me what to hunt. If someone wants to post the coords to a pile of porno in the woods with description in Hungarian, find. Just give me a way to filter that person out. No problem.
See, that's the problem with gc.com. You can't filter the caches you don't want to hunt unless you PAY. You can't hunt offline caches, but they still show up on your nearest list. You can't hunt MO, but you still have to look at them on your nearest list. There are still plenty of caches you simply don't want to hunt because desire or ability, but they arae still there.
List what you want, but give me a way to filter.
CR
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Another way you can look at it is, it's not about caching, but more about putting coords on an object and going finding it.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Renegade Knight wrote: | If you can put cookie recipies in the network that's a problem.
The only thing you should be filtering is caches. Not junk data.
The more work anyone has to do to just go find a cache the less fun it is. Plus if someone misses out on a new cache idea because they are filtering everything except caches to prevent cookie recipies and other junk from getting through, that's not a good thing either. |
I fully agree with what you wrote above. It was this type of message I tried to convey.
Cezanne |
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CoyoteRed wrote: | Sorry, quite frankly, I'm not interested in offering my caches in any language other than English. I don't particularly care to get the system bogged down with multiple translations of caches, either. It's up to the hidder to provide clues to his audience and no one else.
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Why in the world is it so hard to understand that the main issue with multi-linguality is not providing automatic translation? Nobody who has ever tried to use these tools seriously, will believe that using them is a good idea (except when one needs a good laugh).
I am not surprised that you are not interested into offering a cache in other languages than English. If you are not traveling, then maybe you are also not interested into being provided with English cache descriptions in countries where English is not the native language. In Europe, however, the distances between countries with rather different languages are typically small. There it is a very helpful service if all those cachers who are able to write in several languages at least offer their caches in their native language and in English (possibly also in further languages, e.g. if the cache is close to a boarder).
There is currently no cache data base which allows to separate the various language versions - so each cacher has to download, display, print and possibly store all language versions (the more languages are used, the longer the text will become - this also holds for the hint section).
You will perhaps be surprised that the request for support for multilingual versions has finally received more positive response at gc.com than here.
They at least plan to take care of this issue in some update.
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Also, being an open system no one should be telling anyone else what should be in the system. Just like no one should be telling me what to hunt. If someone wants to post the coords to a pile of porno in the woods with description in Hungarian, find. Just give me a way to filter that person out. No problem.
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My concern was not such a personal one. I am able to use filters if I wish to do so, but the outside image of geocaching might very well suffer from a system which is based on a concept of openness where everything else does not play a role any more.
Cezanne |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cezanne wrote: | | I am not surprised that you are not interested into offering a cache in other languages than English. |
By far, the most of my hiders speak only English. A second language would do them absolutely no good. If I were to try to accomodate tourist, who should I cater to? I have absolutely no idea who might want to search out my cache that only speaks a language other than English. Spanish, maybe. French, maybe. Other than that, who? The USA being the great melting pot, it's really no telling what language to translate to.
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There is currently no cache data base which allows to separate the various language versions - so each cacher has to download, display, print and possibly store all language versions (the more languages are used, the longer the text will become - this also holds for the hint section).
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I'm no expert on databases, but an XML-based DB might be able to hold multiple versions of cache discriptions without inflating the whole file.
I guess there could be multiple spaces in the private namespace with language modifiers. I dunno. Not my realm.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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Scout
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cezanne wrote: | | I prefer to have clearly defined concepts - this does not exclude the possibility to come up with new concepts.) |
You can define geocaching however you want, as clearly as you want. The opencaching system allows you to do that.
But you should not be allowed to impose your own definition on the rest of the world. And the opencaching system prevents you from doing that.
My guess is that when you see what hmarq offers as the first Webmaster of an opencaching node, you'll like what you see. It will probably look very much like gc.com and the caches in it will look very much like the caches in gc.com as well. Maybe we should just wait and see.
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Scout http://GPSgames.org
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CoyoteRed wrote: | | cezanne wrote: | | I am not surprised that you are not interested into offering a cache in other languages than English. |
By far, the most of my hiders speak only English.
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Who are your hiders? Did you mean the people who *search* for your caches? If you meant to say that most of the hiders speak only English, this certainly true also because geocaching started in the US, but other countries are catching up.
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A second language would do them absolutely no good.
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Did I say anywhere that *you* should offer your caches in any other language than English? It is perfectly ok and not surprising at all (neither for me nor for anyone else I suppose) that you offer your caches only in English.
But suppose for a moment that you would not live in the US and that your native language would not be English. Which approach would you choose?
Use only your native language and thus excluding those who do not understand that language? Use only English and thus excluding those wo either do not understand English or at least do not feel comfortable with complex English texts?
For a Dutch cacher who is fluent in English and German and whose caches are close to the German boarder, it might be quite natural to offer also English and/or German versions.
Is there any reason for not providing several versions if one is able to do so and will be able to help other cachers by doing so?
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I'm no expert on databases, but an XML-based DB might be able to hold multiple versions of cache discriptions without inflating the whole file.
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There are many ways one could realize this. It is more a question of whether there is the will to do it.
Cezanne |
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cezanne
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Scout wrote: | | cezanne wrote: | | I prefer to have clearly defined concepts - this does not exclude the possibility to come up with new concepts.) |
You can define geocaching however you want, as clearly as you want. The opencaching system allows you to do that.
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In my understanding, a system can never allow someone to come up with a definition of a term.
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But you should not be allowed to impose your own definition on the rest of the world. And the opencaching system prevents you from doing that.
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I never claimed that I would like to come up with my own definition. I would prefer that a clearly defined concept exists - whoever is its creator.
I guess we just should stop this discussion and agree that we disagree on some aspects of what an open geocaching system should be about.
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My guess is that when you see what hmarq offers as the first Webmaster of an opencaching node, you'll like what you see.
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Maybe.
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It will probably look very much like gc.com and the caches in it will look very much like the caches in gc.com as well.
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This is less important for me as you might think. I am not an ardent supporter of gc.com. For example, I do not agree at all with the gc.com policy of rejecting nicely done virtual caches which have all the properties of a wonderful traditional multi-cache except a hidden container at the final location. Moreover, like you I believe that the cache data should belong to the community.
I have to admit, however, that all the fun I had in the last year with caching was made possible by my fellow cachers and by gc.com. I am offering my caches also at nc.com, but every single experience with nc.com was frustrating and disappointing to me.
Cezanne |
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