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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:52 am Post subject: PROPERTY RIGHTS PLEDGE: It would be nice to have one. |
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From what I've been hearing and seeing, the largest friction from the public sector is land owner relations. Okay, just about the only friction!
I think if we can come up with a reasonable pledge as it relates to property rights and some little, simple logo to put on our pages, I think that would go a long way in building good relations. It would visibly show we mean to respect property rights and we mean business.
It would probably have to be short, like a mission statement. Mention something that every cache placed and every page made will have contact information. If there is ever a problem, the owner agrees to promptly fix the problem. etc. etc. etc.
I'll be thinking more about how to word it today and hopefully have a draft later. But doesn't mean that others shouldn't be trying to come up with their own! Please write something up. Let's brain storm.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points."
Last edited by CoyoteRed on Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hmarq
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:01 am Post subject: |
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A fine idea!
Maybe a little logo thingy that could be placed on pages that meet a certain standard ... like the UL (Underwriter's Labratories) on consumer goods, or the W3C icons for validating HTML/CSS ... |
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Renegade Knight
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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It is a good idea.
Would this be self certification. "I do solemnly swear that I have placed this cache in accordance with..."
Or like the UL model where it's verified by UL before they can use the UL logo?
Actually it's a good idea either way. The first type is self regulating and it's power depends on participation and the honesty with which it's applied by the people using the logo. The worst case is that you get lip service for a standard of placement. This isn’t all bad it shows you are trying.
The second case can be certified by an agency independent of the listing site, or be the standard the listing site uses. Either way it's a higher standard with a higher bar and less personal cache placing freedom.
This is definitely worth looking into as the first version can be applied to caches listed anywhere. |
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hmarq
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Renegade Knight wrote: | It is a good idea.
Would this be self certification. "I do solemnly swear that I have placed this cache in accordance with..."
Or like the UL model where it's verified by UL before they can use the UL logo?
Actually it's a good idea either way. The first type is self regulating and it's power depends on participation and the honesty with which it's applied by the people using the logo. The worst case is that you get lip service for a standard of placement. This isn’t all bad it shows you are trying.
The second case can be certified by an agency independent of the listing site, or be the standard the listing site uses. Either way it's a higher standard with a higher bar and less personal cache placing freedom.
This is definitely worth looking into as the first version can be applied to caches listed anywhere. |
Good questions ... I'd guess *both* might be a good answer; the self serve "I do solemley swear" could be added by the placer, and the independant one could be a value add of another site, or be integrated into the logging process for the cache or some other way to be determined ...
Worth discussing either way. |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's pretty wordy, but here's a rough draft:
I realize and fully accept that my hobby is dependent of the good will and graces of the owners and managers of the property on which I place my game pieces. Because of this, it is my solemn pledge that I will always honor the wishes of those in charge of the properties, I will not knowingly place a piece in prohibited areas, and if the area becomes offlimits to my hobby, I will promptly remove all of my game pieces. I will maintain valid contact information in or on both my game piece and my clue set. I will promptly respond to the queries and requests of those in charge of said properties. I will monitor my game pieces so they do not adversely effect the surrounding area and will promptly take steps to correct any problems. It is my sincerest wish to foster a good relationship with those responsible for the lands on which I play.
We need a concise title, too, but I haven't been about think up one short enough.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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What no comment? I must have got it right the first time!
J/K!
Seriously. I'd like some feed back.
Cr
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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hmarq
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CoyoteRed wrote: | What no comment? I must have got it right the first time!
J/K!
Seriously. I'd like some feed back.
Cr |
I'm torn between a blanket statement like this (and which I find no issues with wording) ... and something that is part of the cache entry page for each cache that is entered, that could be more tactical in nature; "I haven't buried it" check -- "I haven't infringed any local policies" check -- etc. ... |
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nici-
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 199
Location: Hürth near Cologne, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| hmarq wrote: | | that could be more tactical in nature; "I haven't buried it" check -- "I haven't infringed any local policies" check -- etc. ... |
Ah, no. Come on. There is good reason and (no reason against) in some areas to bury caches. Of course, often a buried cache may lead to wild digging around. But I know _a lot_ of caches that are buried and with the clues and the description it's easy to find and the nature around is ok. In fact, I think a good 50 % (or more) of the caches I did are more or less buried: In holes under trees, between/under stones in sand and so on. Covered with moss, with wood, with stones. Or with sand...
You simply cannot make stiff rules like that, the game has to be played with sanity and reason. So let's have a statement that supports reasonable thinking. Stiff rules just do the opposite: When people don't find they're applicable, they tend to simply ignore them. Or worse: react defiant to them.
nici-
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hmarq
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| nici- wrote: | | hmarq wrote: | | that could be more tactical in nature; "I haven't buried it" check -- "I haven't infringed any local policies" check -- etc. ... |
Ah, no. Come on. There is good reason and (no reason against) in some areas to bury caches. Of course, often a buried cache may lead to wild digging around. But I know _a lot_ of caches that are buried and with the clues and the description it's easy to find and the nature around is ok. In fact, I think a good 50 % (or more) of the caches I did are more or less buried: In holes under trees, between/under stones in sand and so on. Covered with moss, with wood, with stones. Or with sand...
You simply cannot make stiff rules like that, the game has to be played with sanity and reason. So let's have a statement that supports reasonable thinking. Stiff rules just do the opposite: When people don't find they're applicable, they tend to simply ignore them. Or worse: react defiant to them.
nici- |
I wasn't really trying to define the question set, just float the concept of the 'pledge' being cache level, rather than user level 
That said I guess it depends on the definition of bury ... sure I've had to clear bark, leaves, twigs, etc. from a depression in the ground to find a cache ... but if it requires a shovel, it does seem to be against every 'geocache' definition I've seen. It seems like if you just make it "I promise to play nice, whatever the local definition of nice is" ... that doesn't really mean anything. |
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:02 am Post subject: |
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With my concept of promoting good character in the caching world I think the pledge would have to be "cacher level." Promoting a philosophy to cache by I think would be better--much like a code that one lives by. By always having the pledge in the forefront and keeping to the concept of safe, legal, and ethical, everything will work out.
Now, with the talk of a cache certification, that would certainly be on the cache-level.
Maybe RK can weight in on this, but I'm thinking a land owner would feel better if he thought everyone was thinking about his rights than if a cache passed a check-list.
Besides, can you completely cover everything that might go wrong with a check list? Do we want to "grandfather" caches because we forgot something on a check list? Nope. The primary thing is we're thinking about land owner's rights foremost when placing a cache.
One thing you're going to have to avoid is trying to always show you get land owner permission. Too many owners have a don't ask, don't tell (DA/DT)philosophy. If we start showing the caches that have land owner permission, then when we are talking to a land owner about putting something on their land, they see the caches that are DA/DT and wonder about those. These will appear to have been against the land owner's wishes when, in fact, you got a wink and a nod. I don't think we want to have to certify permission. It's a double-edged sword.
CR
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nici-
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 199
Location: Hürth near Cologne, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| hmarq wrote: | | but if it requires a shovel, it does seem to be against every 'geocache' definition I've seen. |
Have a look at this fine cache:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=736ec206-22be-4f7e-8037-bc68946a1b11
It's a beautiful one, not that easy to find but it pays!
| hmarq wrote: | | It seems like if you just make it "I promise to play nice, whatever the local definition of nice is" ... that doesn't really mean anything. |
But if you do so, it seems you put some trust in your fellow cachers. I think it is always a better way to describe the 'aims' your targeting then to give stiff rules like 'this and that is not allowed'. We're no children - and if we were, the more important it would be to give the information needed that cahers can find their own (locally adapted) solution for the problem.
That's what I like on coyotes text: It makes people think over consequences, makes their own sensible and reasonable decidions. Any way we do it: There will be some problems. But encourage people to feel responsible may help that more of them like to act responsible. Having a given checklist where there is no escape (if one wants to list his cache) has the effect that people like to delegate responsibility. You don't have to think, if you have the list - ''they' did the thinking already'. And at a given location no list can be as accurate as good common sense.
My opinion, and what I discover: Green makes people stop thinking on their own. And thats one thing, I fear for our hobby to grow ;-(
nici-
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CoyoteRed
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think burying is fine as long as you're keeping the land owner's rights in the forefront on your mind AND both the hider and the finder can leave the area as if no one has been there.
The original stash was partially buried. You didn't have to dig it up, but it allowed a huge container to be hidden. As defined as a cache, I think this is fine. Buried containers that don't need to be unburied to be found, that are covered with only debris--leaves, pine straw, rocks, and other camouflage--, or buried in sand, but not protected dunes, I think is okay.
The problem is distilling this down to a simple concept. You want it simple to remember without advocating destruction and prohibition. Others have taken the easy way out and just banned it on their site. We want to be as accomodating to the cacher as we are protective of land owner rights and thus the image of the hobby.
CR
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"...been know to miss the finer points." |
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hmarq
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I don't really feel that strongly one way or another on this topic, nor really the definition of a geocache ... however, having looked at this cache, I'd call it more of a letterbox than a geocache .... I can't go find it with just a GPSr and my geocaching experience/knowledge (unless I add to that excavating and entire 10m radius to a depth of 20cm ... I need those 3 sentences of 'fine grain' navigation once on site ... that I think is the problem with burying in general ... unless you use a marker ('X' marks the spot), you need some on-site micronavigation to know where to dig. But that' s just me. |
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Renegade Knight
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:48 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to put this in the geocaching.com forums and see if it floats. A pledge in the USA won't be the same as one in Germany.
Members will define them if they feel the need. |
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welch
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CoyoteRed wrote: | What no comment? I must have got it right the first time!
J/K!
Seriously. I'd like some feed back.
Cr |
Im unclear as to were this pledge would be placed and used....
Will you have to *sign* that pledge when viewing or listing caches? Or will it be on some sort of 'codes of honor' page?? or what?
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